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Thinking Outside the BOX

Sun Jun 7, 2009, 5:10 AM
OK, I suffer from insomnia often. usually because I get an idea bubbling around in my nearly empty head and can't let it go and just relax. Hey, an idea for me is a rare event, so I savor it as long as possible.

The latest one has been the classic "Time Travel Paradox" or, the usual, not well thought out dangers that can occur from traveling into the past and messing around with historic events.
The normal list of possible paradoxes are as long as the amount of sometime rather bright people that think them out. Puzzle Addicts with too much time on thier hands, or Writters who don't really care if thier concept is plausible or not, as long as it sounds cool.

So I was tearing into the whole concept, imagining this scenario and that one, thinking about the ramifications, Timeline effects, alterations to our current Reletive Viewpoint...Blah Blah Blah..
And getting more confused by the minute as my scenarios became more and more complicated and conveluted to make any sense. Most ended with a nearly infinit amount of alternate realities being born every frikken second or two if you ever DID manage to go back in Time..... Real headache stuff.

Then, in a galactic sized explosion, I had me an Epiphany! And it HURT! Ouch! (avoid them if you can!)
I was basing all my scenarios on other peoples ideas, things I had seen on TV or read in Books. few of these had any real science or serious thought put into them. most were ideas based on ideas based on rather slim assumptions or just fantasy.

With this embarassing and troubling realization in tow, I made a serious effort to clean my head of all the residue from decades of preconceptions and psuedo-facts and science and simply addressed the idea of Time Travel into the past, near or distant. The puzzle fell into clear understanding almost immediatley and with wonderful clarity.
Here is my theory and conclusions on Time Travel into the past, and all the resulting problems and paradoxes that can result. It might be handy to those who wish to write stories based on this theme.

1> Can we travel backwards in Time?

Answer> Sure, why not. Assuming the technology is eventually discovered.

The only REAL troubles you'll come accross is targeting a specific location to "Land" at. The Earth is only steady and stable beneath our feet from OUR relative viewpoint, standing on it. In reality, Terra is Spinning rather fast, and Orbiting Sol rather fast, and The whole Solar System is moving round our Galactic Center rather fast, and our Galaxy is moving through our Universe rather Fasest!..........
Now, try and figure out where the spot your standing right now was actually located 1000 years ago in Space? heck, figure it for 10 seconds ago if you want it easier. It was a LOOOOOONG ways away from where you are right now.
So the first dude to hop backwards in time through a cool ciclular-electromagnet-spinning-thingy-with-cool-FX will be sucking vacuum and lost to history as a huge OOPS!
A Time Machine will either move you through Space AND Time to a spot on Terra, or it will be a spaceship or starship or such. Maybe a Landing Pod that will be shot out at huge velocity towards the place in space that Terra was in 1million B.C. Then, as it creates a Time-Vortex or Worhole or such, it leaves real-space and accelerates outside einstienian space-time to near the spot you wanna land, re-entering normal space-time, decelerates to a landing right on top of a ticked off Tribal Witchdoctor, who has ruby slippers you can accessorize with!
It could HAPPEN! :D

2> Once back safely in the Past, Can I axe murder that Evil Dude from the past that I always thought the world would be better off without?

Answer> Did someone who looks exactly like YOU actually axe murder that dude according to history? then dissapear in a puff of logic? No?!?
Then there's your answer, you never did it Amigo! Nor did anyone else if it isn't recorded as being done.

So the answer to the favorite Paradox of all time is. You cannot go back in Time, and in a blaze of suicidal psychosis, Grease your own Ancestor. Because you DID NOT DO IT. The obvious evidense is that you EXIST. You cannot create a Paradox.

Alternate Timelines and Parallel worlds aside. There is not a chance you can ever go back and change a historic event. BUT! If history records that someone who looked alot like YOU was one of the Senators who butchered Julious Caesar in the Senate way back when. Then you likely were taking a Time-Vacation and got caught up in an historic event. Or you instigated the whole thing you evil bastard!
Remember, SOMEONE warned Caesar to watch his ass around the end of February (Kalends of February) or begining of March (Ides of March). This Oracle of things to come may very well have been someone trying to alter the timeline and see Rome become what it may have become had Caesar lived to accomplish his dreams.

It all falls beautifully into place once you realise the Past is not changeable. Time is a linear progression from then to here, if You DID do something to alter the past, it would be recorded as History well before you ever thought of doing the deed.
There are NO PARADOXES. period. End of debate.

BUT! this does not preclude, in any way, a Time Traveler being involved in historic events, or going back in unrecorded history (prehistoric or undocumented history) and having Loads of fun mucking things up for our ancestors. even recent history does not record everyone who ever had a philisophical chat with Stalin, or tried to talk Martin Luther King Jr. into a change of travel plans before his fateful speech. There is a HUGE amount of unknown or unmentioned area to play with for any Time-Travel Adventure. Even failed attempts at changing history are good fiction and wonderfully eventful.

As you see, sheddding the baggage of things you were programmed to think, and really thinking Outside the Box. Can really simplify your reality. Or clarify issues to the bare essense. But it is damn hard to do. ;)

  • Mood: Joy
  • Listening to: Wind, always the Wind...
  • Reading: Never Learned How
  • Watching: the Trees wave in the......
  • Playing: at being human, It's Fun! try it!
  • Eating: Gave it up for COFFEE! Buzzzzz
  • Drinking: Coffee! And Wired as Hell!

Devious Comments

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:iconkaranua:
Thats all fine and dandy in a single line chain of events or what some thinkers and for the most part all scifi writers term linear time. The simple truth of the matter is time is not linear therefore there can't be any nice thing called paradox.

--
And the Angel of The Lord said unto the shepherds;
"Fuck off. This is cattle country"
:icontonabrix:
What :iconkaranua: said is essentially true. The current "world-view" of mathematics and physics stipulates a multiverse rather than a universe. I linear you have your traveller travel back along is own time line (the effects of which are going to require infinite power much the same as trying to pass lightspeed in the same linear world) and arrive at a arbiary point earlier onlong the same "axis". In the multiverse approach he arrives at the same arbitary point on the time axis but in a timeline one universe over as it were. We need a whole new language as you can see to talk time travel, with new referent points and new boundaries (which in mutispatial math is another impossibility). Hope your as confused as I am about all this junk, I'm thinking its why most writers use th old "back to the future type model" coz the physics etc is Waaaay too complicated.
:iconrfalk:
I have heard many times about time being Non-Linear, and have yet to see any evidense to back it up. Course, I don't follow the science journal publications anymore (too Time consuming). So I might have missed someone other then a fiction writter postulating a cohesive and accepted thoery. The mechanics of a Non-Linear timestream are pretty difficult to wrap ones mind around.
Anyway, from my current relative viewpoint. Time is linear, progressing from the Big Bang (assuming that thoery to be true) to our "Now". And, although Einstienian Physics does allow for time to be slowed or sped up, depending on your relative viewpoint in time-space, I don't remember special relativity covering non-linear timeflow.
I do recall an interview with Steven Hawkings about the possibility of travelling backwards in time, and he could only postulate alot of needed trickery with wormholes and blackholes in order to recieve a transmission before it was actually sent. He did say, however, that time was a linear factor in any plausible scenario.

Course, I can only base my theory and conclusions on what we currently understand. I personally doubt Einstien had the whole thing figured out. We'll likely turn his laws on thier ear just as we do every few centuries or so.

Two areas I am not willing, or able, to deal with are non-linear timeflow and circular timestreams.
Alternate Timelines are a cute and attractive idea, but the shear amount of energy needed to create a whole new branch of reality is so unbelievably staggering that it is easier to disbelieve then to believe in such an event.

One Paradox alone has troubled me and refuses to go away.

>What if someone recieved plans for building a time machine, sent by themselves from the future into thier past?
A Loop in time is created where we have to wonder where/when the original time machine was created that allowed you to send the plans backward....

That one sucks....

So, Lemme know who your citing for non-linear time theory so I can read up on it amigo. Love to take a crack at understanding it. :)

--
:paranoid: Didn't Happen! Nobody saw it! Can't prove a thing!:sprint:
:iconrfalk:
Oddly for me, since I like the "I'll believe it when I see it." ideaology. I do feel thier is evidense of multiple universes and "sort of" understand the onion layer thoeries that are running around. Certainly we have plenty of odd things going on with gravity disappearing or appearing for no explainable reasons in modern physics, and gravity playing hopscotch from one reality to the other does go far to explain these mysterious FX.
But I have to agree totally, figuring our our own points of reference in this universe is a feat, doing it for two seperate timeflows and dimentional constructs is Godlike.
Might be fun just to jump back n forth between a few, and maybe score one that flows backwards though. That universe would be very handy :plotting:

Yeah, I get your idea. sounds reasonable.
Not to sure about needing infinite energy. Lightspeed thoery does suggest it's energy needs might apply to other areas of rulebreaking. But why not just hope it don't. ;)

I'll post my weird ideas about the multiverse next time. I think there is evidense that other realities DO overlap this one. But Hawkings would bitchslap me and laugh if he ever heard em. LOTS of Maybe's and Ifs involved.

--
:paranoid: Didn't Happen! Nobody saw it! Can't prove a thing!:sprint:
:icontonabrix:
Science is a set of fictions designed to make the inexplicable understandable. its all junk really.
:icontonabrix:
There are Far more important questions in the here and now. Like : How come I only get one carton of cereal for breakfast when I can easily manage two? :lmao:
:iconkaranua:
Dunno if its been mentioned in converstaion or not. I did quantum cosmology as my primary PhD subject, all this shit is just part of the equations. Trust me - its not worth getting your head fucked up over.

--
And the Angel of The Lord said unto the shepherds;
"Fuck off. This is cattle country"
:iconrfalk:
Chuckles! Likely so. :)

--
:paranoid: Didn't Happen! Nobody saw it! Can't prove a thing!:sprint:
:iconrfalk:
Hehehe, You need to remember the conservation of energy laws. If Dad gave you Two, he risks a black hole forming. :lol:

--
:paranoid: Didn't Happen! Nobody saw it! Can't prove a thing!:sprint:

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